In this episode of the Construction Disruption Podcast, Todd Miller and co-host Ryan Bell explore the intersection of design, architecture, and health with award-winning architect Ali Heshmati. Heshmati's work primarily centers on designing environments that promote mental and physiological health by aligning with our natural biological rhythms.
Ali brings over 30 years of experience in architecture and design to share his insights on the impact buildings have on human health and well-being. He explores concepts like biometric architecture and the importance of natural light in our daily routines.
Heshmati also discusses Circadian Eyewear, a product he developed to mitigate the adverse effects of artificial light on our circadian rhythms. Throughout the podcast, he discusses various cultures, the essence of human-centric design, and the future of architecture in fostering healthier living spaces.
Whether you're a professional in the field or simply curious about the space we inhabit, this episode promises to reshape your understanding of architecture's role in our daily lives. Join us as we uncover the future of design and the profound ways it can enhance our physical and psychological state.
Timestamps
01:15 Introducing Award-Winning Architect Ali Heshmati
04:51 Ali Hashmati's Journey: From Tehran to Norway
14:11 The Impact of Built Environments on Health and Wellbeing
19:54 Exploring Circadian Rhythms and Architectural Design
32:19 Daylight in Architecture: Balancing Energy and Experience
39:38 The Gap in Architectural Education
42:24 The Personal Journey to Circadian Eyewear
42:48 The Impact of Circadian Eyewear
51:23 Designing Buildings for Human Experience
54:02 The Vision for a User Manual in Architecture
56:14 Advice for Aspiring Architects
59:37 Rapid Fire Questions: Insights and Anecdotes
01:09:23 Final Thoughts and Contact Information
Connect with Ali Online
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leadinc/
LEADinc: https://www.leadinc.no/
Circadian Eyewear: https://circadianeyewear.com/
For more Construction Disruption, listen on Apple Podcasts or YouTube
Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn
This episode was produced by Isaiah Industries, Inc.
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Podtrac - https://analytics.podtrac.com/privacy-policy-gdrp
Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy
Welcome to the Construction Disruption Podcast, where we
Intro:uncover the future of design, building, and remodeling.
Todd Miller:I'm Todd Miller of Isaiah Industries, manufacturer
Todd Miller:of specialty metal roofing and other building materials.
Todd Miller:And today my co host here on Construction Disruption is Ryan Bell.
Todd Miller:How you doing, Ryan?
Ryan Bell:Hey, Todd, I'm doing great.
Ryan Bell:How are you?
Todd Miller:I'm doing very well.
Todd Miller:Also, looking forward to a fun weekend.
Todd Miller:So, um, sometimes I, I tell some stories to get the show started.
Todd Miller:Um, I did want to tell you a story I don't think I've ever
Todd Miller:shared with you before, Ryan.
Todd Miller:Um, and this is of one of my first jobs, you know, back when I was
Todd Miller:in college, I worked a lot of part time jobs to Make my way through
Todd Miller:school and all that type of stuff.
Todd Miller:But, um, one of my first jobs, um, was actually at a calendar factory.
Todd Miller:We made calendars.
Todd Miller:Um, unfortunately I got fired because I took a couple of days off.
Todd Miller:Nice.
Todd Miller:Okay.
Todd Miller:Do I get a six with that or five?
Todd Miller:I
Ryan Bell:don't know.
Ryan Bell:That was pretty good.
Todd Miller:I'll give it a six.
Todd Miller:Okay, good deal.
Todd Miller:Good deal.
Todd Miller:Well, let's get rolling here.
Todd Miller:So, you know, one of the things I always enjoy here on the show is having
Todd Miller:architects, uh, join us on the show.
Todd Miller:You know, I think a lot of times we, we think of architects and what they do
Todd Miller:in the moment, but we don't necessarily think about the long term impact.
Todd Miller:Um, that the buildings that they design have on our lives and, you know, we
Todd Miller:think about the impact as far as the aesthetic and, oh, isn't that cool and
Todd Miller:nice looking, you know, buildings also impact how we function, um, how efficient
Todd Miller:we might be, how comfortable we might be, um, and perhaps even our health.
Todd Miller:Um, so today we have Ali Hashmati, an award winning architect who goes
Todd Miller:down that road of the impact that our built environment has on our lives.
Todd Miller:Um, he goes down that road and, and more than anyone else I've ever encountered.
Todd Miller:So as a registered licensed architect with more than 30 years of experience,
Todd Miller:um, in architecture, design, public art, and the fine arts, Ali has
Todd Miller:worked on numerous large scale award winning architectural projects.
Todd Miller:Um, as well as art installations.
Todd Miller:Um, his architectural work during the last 10 years has been focused
Todd Miller:on the intersection of art, architecture, and neuroscience.
Todd Miller:The impact of the built environment on people's health and wellbeing is
Todd Miller:his main preoccupation right now.
Todd Miller:Um, Ali is an architect, public artist, educator, and public speaker on human.
Todd Miller:Human centric architecture.
Todd Miller:Currently working with Henning Larsen Architects in Norway.
Todd Miller:Hashmati is also a PhD candidate at the Norwegian University
Todd Miller:of Science and Technology.
Todd Miller:Um, his practice, teaching, research, and writing focuses on the impact
Todd Miller:of the built environment on our physical and psychological health.
Todd Miller:As well as our well being, even our cognitive performance,
Todd Miller:our ability to focus, um, and even on our mood fluctuations.
Todd Miller:Titled Biometric Architecture, Heshmati's doctoral research is focused
Todd Miller:on the impact of available daylight within the built environments on the
Todd Miller:brain's regulation and the circadian rhythms, sleep, sustained focus,
Todd Miller:vigilance, and mood fluctu fluctuations.
Todd Miller:Um, he is looking for biomarkers of human spatial experience to design more
Todd Miller:suitable places, promoting mental and physiological health and wellbeing.
Todd Miller:So, I have really gotten over my head with a lot of those words I had to say
Todd Miller:there, um, but I think it's cool stuff.
Todd Miller:Um, and, uh, before I fully put my foot in my mouth, it's my
Todd Miller:pleasure to introduce Ali Hashmati.
Todd Miller:Uh, welcome to the show, my friend.
Todd Miller:It's a pleasure to have you here today.
Ali Heshmati:Pleasure is mine, Todd.
Ali Heshmati:Um, it's great to be here with you and Ryan, and, uh, I hope, um, we can
Ali Heshmati:make sense of some of those words.
Ali Heshmati:Um, because those are just words actually, but they do have meanings.
Todd Miller:I love it.
Todd Miller:Sounds good.
Todd Miller:Well, and one thing I did forget to mention earlier, um, reminder to our
Todd Miller:audience so that they're, that you're all aware, we are doing our challenge words
Todd Miller:this episode where, um, each of us here on the show has been given some special
Todd Miller:word by one of the others that we are challenged to work into conversation.
Todd Miller:So you can kind of be listening, see if you can figure out what our
Todd Miller:challenge words are And at the end of the show, uh, we will announce
Todd Miller:what they were and whether we were successful at working them in.
Todd Miller:Um, so I think it's really interesting, Ali.
Todd Miller:Um, you very much have a worldview.
Todd Miller:Um, you've lived in some very distinct cultures in your life.
Todd Miller:Um, can you share with us a little bit about that background?
Todd Miller:And how living in those different worlds and cultures has impacted you today
Todd Miller:and your thoughts on architecture and design and, you know, the, the overall
Todd Miller:impact that buildings have on us.
Ali Heshmati:Yeah, this is great because I've always said I'm citizen of the world.
Ali Heshmati:Um, you know, um, I've lived probably I've seen, um, a lot of the work, uh,
Ali Heshmati:but, um, I've lived now, um, probably equal life, uh, equal amount of, um,
Ali Heshmati:time, uh, in 3 different continents.
Ali Heshmati:Asia, where I was born in Tehran, Iran, and then U.
Ali Heshmati:S., um, North America, um, where I grew up, essentially,
Ali Heshmati:in terms of my intellectual sort of, uh, leaning and being.
Ali Heshmati:And then now in Europe, where I have a little family of my own.
Ali Heshmati:Um, so, um, I have lived, uh, these different cultures, and I think Each one
Ali Heshmati:of them, uh, have had a, um, um, great impact on the way I, uh, work, on the
Ali Heshmati:way I think, uh, on the way, um, I, uh, essentially, uh, show myself, if you will.
Ali Heshmati:Um, uh, as I said, I was born in Tehran, Iran, um, and, uh, lived
Ali Heshmati:there during the 60s and 70s.
Ali Heshmati:Very happening time there, exciting, exciting time there.
Ali Heshmati:At the very end, there was a revolution and I was involved in a war.
Ali Heshmati:I have actually served, um, in the army and, uh, was in, uh, that,
Ali Heshmati:um, uh, eight year war before, uh, I could get out of the country.
Ali Heshmati:Not that I wanted to be in a war.
Ali Heshmati:Um, I'm a pacifist at heart.
Ali Heshmati:Um, now more than ever.
Ali Heshmati:Um, but, um, I think, uh, it, uh, it did give me a sort of appreciation for, uh,
Ali Heshmati:for life that I didn't have as a young man, um, before going to the, uh, service.
Ali Heshmati:Um, so, um, coming to U.
Ali Heshmati:S., I had to start from scratch.
Ali Heshmati:I had to, um, work my way, I had to, um, study, I had to go to school, that
Ali Heshmati:was my visa, my visa was a, um, study visa, so, um, I started, uh, you know,
Ali Heshmati:a sort of a new life, and I remember distinctly that, uh, for the first
Ali Heshmati:two years, Um, everything was new, everything was different, and all I was
Ali Heshmati:noticing was this difference, right?
Ali Heshmati:I was noticing the cultural differences.
Ali Heshmati:I was noticing the, um, behavioral, different differences.
Ali Heshmati:Everything was different.
Ali Heshmati:But after that two years, that initial sort of initiation into this new culture,
Ali Heshmati:because I had never been outside.
Ali Heshmati:To Iran, Iran, anywhere, anywhere, and all of a sudden I'm in a whole new world.
Ali Heshmati:Um, so this was a great sort of, uh, baptism by fire, if you will.
Ali Heshmati:Um, then dropped into a place that was totally foreign.
Ali Heshmati:But after that two years, all I noticed, All I noticed was the similarities at
Ali Heshmati:the end at the end of that two years or beginning the rest of my life in the U.
Ali Heshmati:S.
Ali Heshmati:at least in I noticed that people are really similar.
Ali Heshmati:You could find that, you know, Todd everywhere, almost.
Ali Heshmati:You could find Ali somewhere else.
Ali Heshmati:You know, there were people, similarities were up.
Ali Heshmati:And, um, I noticed that, We don't really have that much of differences at the end.
Ali Heshmati:And so, um, I, I became a, became an American citizen.
Ali Heshmati:I had come, by the way, this was my, um, total thing that I'd
Ali Heshmati:come to get, get a studies and go back and serve my country, right?
Ali Heshmati:My, uh, Uh, homeland.
Ali Heshmati:Uh, well, I, I guess I was never done.
Ali Heshmati:I, I'm not done to go back yet.
Ali Heshmati:So it's just one thing after the other.
Ali Heshmati:And then I'm still learning and I'm still, um, uh, traveling.
Ali Heshmati:And then, um, in Minnesota, where I was living, um, at the end of my, uh.
Ali Heshmati:Studies, I met this wonderful woman, um, who, uh, decided at some
Ali Heshmati:point that she wants to go back to Norway and here I am in Norway.
Ali Heshmati:Um, so the last 18 years I've been in Norway.
Ali Heshmati:So, if you imagine my, my years has been like, 30, 20 years here, 20 years
Ali Heshmati:there, 20 years in Europe, and, um, I think it does give you a perspective.
Ali Heshmati:That is unique.
Ali Heshmati:And it does give you a perspective that is a lived experience
Ali Heshmati:rather than just visiting.
Ali Heshmati:You're not a visitor anymore anywhere you go.
Ali Heshmati:And, um, 1 thing that I, um, I think I've learned in different cultures,
Ali Heshmati:for example, uh, Midwesterners were, um, amazingly, amazingly polite.
Ali Heshmati:And, um, uh, I, you know, you would just get energy going out.
Ali Heshmati:Walking about people saying hi, smiling to you.
Ali Heshmati:And that wasn't, that wasn't the place that I came from.
Ali Heshmati:Right.
Ali Heshmati:Um, so I had come to Norway and I was, Norwegians are very, um,
Ali Heshmati:sort of introverted, if you will.
Ali Heshmati:Um, I was walking with my wife in this little town she comes from.
Ali Heshmati:And, um, I would just smile and say hi to people.
Ali Heshmati:And she would tell me, do you know these people?
Ali Heshmati:And she would ask.
Ali Heshmati:And I said, no, I don't.
Ali Heshmati:And she would say, why are you saying hi to people?
Ali Heshmati:Like, it was very weird for her.
Ali Heshmati:And, you know, I thought about this for a while.
Ali Heshmati:And I always would say, well, you know, this acknowledging the other person with
Ali Heshmati:the smile and a nod is a human thing.
Ali Heshmati:And she would not understand it, um, until, uh, one day she comes
Ali Heshmati:home and tells me that, uh, she just went for a massage with her massage
Ali Heshmati:therapist, and the massage therapist said, you have a wonderful husband.
Ali Heshmati:Now, I don't know this person at all.
Ali Heshmati:And, uh, she goes, what do you mean?
Ali Heshmati:Um, he, Shibu, this, this massage therapist says, Well, uh, it was
Ali Heshmati:Friday night, I was coming out of grocery store, and he's coming in,
Ali Heshmati:he nods and smiles and says hi.
Ali Heshmati:And I felt so energetic.
Ali Heshmati:I went back to the wine store, got myself a wine and went home
Ali Heshmati:and celebrated with my husband.
Ali Heshmati:So to me, that was just, um, total, um, acknowledgement of this act that the
Ali Heshmati:sort of this sort of very simple act that we do, um, and not in the smile and
Ali Heshmati:saying hi, and how important that was.
Ali Heshmati:So these are the things that I've picked up from different cultures and, uh,
Ali Heshmati:hoping to be a better person for it.
Todd Miller:I think that's really interesting and a neat story
Todd Miller:there, but I think it's also interesting how you talk about that.
Todd Miller:Despite living in these three very distinct cultures and certainly some
Todd Miller:differences in terms of habits and norms and so forth, but, um, at our
Todd Miller:root, we're all really the same.
Todd Miller:So for you as an architect, um, you have to appreciate that because architectural
Todd Miller:design and the built environment can also be a very universal thing, um,
Todd Miller:because people are fairly universal.
Todd Miller:So I think that's really interesting.
Ali Heshmati:Absolutely.
Ali Heshmati:You know, just imagine if.
Ali Heshmati:That wasn't the case, it would be very complex.
Ali Heshmati:I mean, architecture as it is, right?
Ali Heshmati:It's amazingly complex.
Ali Heshmati:You know, you, you have to think about a lot of things,
Ali Heshmati:a lot of differences as well.
Ali Heshmati:Especially now when we talk about sustainability and the fact that something
Ali Heshmati:has to be flexible enough to live for a long time and be usable for a long time.
Ali Heshmati:Resilient, if you will.
Ali Heshmati:So, yes, yes, it is amazingly true that at their heart, You're fairly similar.
Ali Heshmati:So that's really good.
Todd Miller:That's neat.
Todd Miller:So a lot of your focus today is on, you know, our built environment and
Todd Miller:how it impacts our mental, our physical or physiological health, um, and
Todd Miller:also our happiness and well being.
Todd Miller:And, you know, I understand that's a subject that you've been studying
Todd Miller:and fascinated by for some time.
Todd Miller:Anything you can share with us about that, that you're learning even
Todd Miller:today, um, you know, after having studied it for quite some time.
Ali Heshmati:Yeah.
Ali Heshmati:You know, as you mentioned, I have practiced architecture for 30 years and
Ali Heshmati:for the 30 years, and, um, I I'd say the first 10 years was, um, focused on finding
Ali Heshmati:myself, finding my voice, finding what I can do, what I can bring to architecture.
Ali Heshmati:The second 10 years, um, really was about, um, finding how I can explore
Ali Heshmati:and make things better, um, for people.
Ali Heshmati:And then this last 10 years, uh, I have been focusing on the impact
Ali Heshmati:of building environment on people.
Ali Heshmati:Um, think about, uh, uh, Vincent Churchill, um, said, we shape our
Ali Heshmati:buildings, thereafter, they shape us.
Ali Heshmati:Um, and I had sort of, uh, resonance with that, um, quote, uh, in a way that, um,
Ali Heshmati:I had known that buildings impact people.
Ali Heshmati:In some ways, um, and, um, for the last 10 years, I've been focusing on that impact,
Ali Heshmati:finding out how buildings shape us.
Ali Heshmati:Essentially, how, um, building environment, I can make a difference
Ali Heshmati:in the way we live in the way we behave and ultimately in the way we are.
Ali Heshmati:Um, we know now that, uh, we are spending more than 90 percent of our
Ali Heshmati:lives within the built environment.
Ali Heshmati:Just think about it.
Ali Heshmati:If you age to be 100 years old, you have lived inside for 93 years of that.
Ali Heshmati:Only 7 years or less than that, you've been outdoors.
Ali Heshmati:But we, we did not evolve in this sort of situation.
Ali Heshmati:for your attention.
Ali Heshmati:Our biology has evolved over 3.
Ali Heshmati:5 billion years.
Ali Heshmati:I mean, we're not talking about just human.
Ali Heshmati:We're talking about, you know, um, the biology itself has evolved over 3.
Ali Heshmati:5 billion years.
Ali Heshmati:In natural conditions, and now the last.
Ali Heshmati:We can say just the last actually 140 years, because before that,
Ali Heshmati:a lot of people were spending a lot of time outdoors, right?
Ali Heshmati:For the last 140 years, since the 2nd industrial revolution and the invention
Ali Heshmati:of electricity and electric light.
Ali Heshmati:We have been spending more and more of our times indoor in the,
Ali Heshmati:um, uh, developed world we are, I should say, industrialized world.
Ali Heshmati:We are spending more and more of our times.
Ali Heshmati:Indoors.
Ali Heshmati:COVID was a great example.
Ali Heshmati:You know, if you guys think about it, for example, if I ask you a
Ali Heshmati:question, um, think about yesterday.
Ali Heshmati:Yesterday was Thursday, right?
Ali Heshmati:Um, how many hours did you spend outdoors?
Todd Miller:Very few.
Todd Miller:It was cold here for one reason.
Ali Heshmati:Was it one hour?
Ryan Bell:30 wasn't
Todd Miller:even
Ryan Bell:that 30 minutes.
Ali Heshmati:How are you
Ryan Bell:there?
Ryan Bell:About 30 minutes.
Ryan Bell:I took my dog for a little walk and then it started freezing rain and
Ryan Bell:it was like time to go back inside.
Ali Heshmati:So, so really this sort of environment has become our
Ali Heshmati:de facto environment has become our natural environment now.
Ali Heshmati:And, but my question and the question that I'm going after is that Is this enough?
Ali Heshmati:Is this correct for our health, for our physiological health,
Ali Heshmati:for our mental health, uh, and for our well being generally?
Ali Heshmati:Uh, and, uh, more and more we are looking into it.
Ali Heshmati:More and more we are finding that, uh, And when I say we, by the way, I'm
Ali Heshmati:not talking about me in a royal sense.
Ali Heshmati:I'm talking about bigger picture than me.
Ali Heshmati:So, um, so, um, people are finding out that, uh, uh, we are this
Ali Heshmati:environment is not really made.
Ali Heshmati:For healthy and well, and well, being for health and well being.
Ali Heshmati:So, so we, um, we are trying to find out ways to make it more.
Ali Heshmati:Um, like the natural environment.
Ali Heshmati:More in contact with the natural environment.
Ali Heshmati:I'm not talking about, you know, when it's minus 40 degrees outside.
Ali Heshmati:That's not the case.
Ali Heshmati:You know, I've lived in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
Ali Heshmati:So, I know those days, but I'm not thinking about ways that are
Ali Heshmati:built environment could do the good things that it does for us.
Ali Heshmati:These are the things that should be done.
Ali Heshmati:So we get to talk about those a little later when we talk about,
Ali Heshmati:of course, circadian rhythms.
Ali Heshmati:For example, you know, you mentioned that maybe I should just
Ali Heshmati:talk about it now, as I said, 3.
Ali Heshmati:5 billion years ago.
Ali Heshmati:Our biological rhythms have evolved with the availability
Ali Heshmati:of sun, essentially, daylight.
Ali Heshmati:Okay, what that means is that, imagine what we call circadian rhythms.
Ali Heshmati:Is these natural rhythms that happen over 24 hours?
Ali Heshmati:Okay, um, your hormonal rhythms, your behavioral rhythms, your, you know,
Ali Heshmati:the way you get hungry, the way you get sleepy, the way all of these things happen
Ali Heshmati:in a 24 hour cycle, you know, if you, for example, didn't have the alarm clock.
Ali Heshmati:You would wake up at a certain time, and you would go to bed at a certain time.
Ali Heshmati:These are all natural rhythms, and they are made essentially to, um, for us to
Ali Heshmati:survive in the natural environment, right?
Ali Heshmati:If we didn't wake up early enough, we would be food for
Ali Heshmati:the next predator, right?
Ali Heshmati:So we had to, in anticipation of day, we had to wake up, we would
Ali Heshmati:be hungry to eat, and then we would You know, move through our day.
Ali Heshmati:So, um, our rhythms now are based on this central clock, and then
Ali Heshmati:billions of clocks inside our body, you know, easily said, every cell
Ali Heshmati:in your body has a clock mechanism.
Ali Heshmati:Okay, so often on day and night, whatever you want to call it,
Ali Heshmati:simply said day and night, right?
Ali Heshmati:Okay.
Ali Heshmati:So, when some comes out.
Ali Heshmati:Okay.
Ali Heshmati:There's the signal that goes, light signal, that goes through the eye,
Ali Heshmati:directly into the brain, and the brain gets this message that it is dead.
Ali Heshmati:So there is a center in the brain that sends a message to other parts of the
Ali Heshmati:body to say it's day, time to wake up.
Ali Heshmati:You feel hungry because your body has to get enough energy for activation
Ali Heshmati:and activity throughout the day.
Ali Heshmati:You don't get hungry just because your stomach is empty.
Ali Heshmati:So that at night then, when it gets dark, the lack of light signal.
Ali Heshmati:Sends a message again to that center to the brain.
Ali Heshmati:Imagine, let's call it central clock, right?
Ali Heshmati:That central clock then goes back, sends a message to other parts
Ali Heshmati:of the body to say, it's night.
Ali Heshmati:Now we're going to do other things.
Ali Heshmati:We're not going to be active.
Ali Heshmati:Therefore, we are not hungry anymore.
Ali Heshmati:Therefore, we don't have to grab that, you know, bag of potato chips.
Ali Heshmati:We don't do this, right?
Ali Heshmati:I do.
Ryan Bell:Is my clock broken?
Ryan Bell:That's exactly
Ali Heshmati:what it is.
Ali Heshmati:And I'm going to tell you why.
Ali Heshmati:It is because of the light signal.
Ali Heshmati:It is because of light signal.
Ali Heshmati:It's not that you are broken inside.
Ali Heshmati:It is that your environmental cue or clue Or signal is broken 140 years ago.
Ali Heshmati:Um, the light bulbs were industrially available and for the
Ali Heshmati:1st time, we got the light bread.
Ali Heshmati:Right?
Ali Heshmati:So we could, I mean, the electric bread.
Ali Heshmati:So, now we could have light day and night before that.
Ali Heshmati:Of course, we have gas lights.
Ali Heshmati:You know about the history of this better than I do, but it wasn't disavailable.
Ali Heshmati:Cities like New York and London and Paris became sort of day and night cities.
Ali Heshmati:Now we didn't have to sleep anymore, right?
Ali Heshmati:And the light signal was there to give the brain this mixed signal that you
Ali Heshmati:don't need to sleep, you need to eat.
Ali Heshmati:Because It's getting a day signal at night, thinking that has to
Ali Heshmati:prepare the body for activity.
Ali Heshmati:So that's why you reach for that bag of potato chips, not because
Ali Heshmati:you're hungry, but because your brain is giving you a signal that
Ali Heshmati:it is day and you need to be active.
Ali Heshmati:Therefore, you're eating for activity in anticipation for
Ali Heshmati:activity, not the activity itself.
Ali Heshmati:And if you're not active and you're eating, what does that mean?
Ali Heshmati:Means you'll gain weight, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Ali Heshmati:We can talk about those a little later.
Ali Heshmati:Um, but so this billions of clocks inside your body have to be synchronized
Ali Heshmati:with the natural environment.
Ali Heshmati:And with that central, um, cloth inside your brain in order for
Ali Heshmati:you to be healthy, and if it is not there, you're not healthy.
Ali Heshmati:Well, what does this have to do with architecture, you would ask?
Ali Heshmati:I mean, okay, well, as I said, now we are living more than 90 percent of our
Ali Heshmati:lives within the building environment.
Ali Heshmati:Right?
Ali Heshmati:So it is this light signal within this environment that
Ali Heshmati:it is most important to this.
Ali Heshmati:System and this system, by the way, disruption of this system can cause I
Ali Heshmati:shouldn't say cause I have to stop myself.
Ali Heshmati:Sometimes it is associated with many different.
Ali Heshmati:Disorders and diseases from hypertension to
Ali Heshmati:obesity to
Ali Heshmati:type 2 diabetes to
Ali Heshmati:cardiovascular diseases.
Ali Heshmati:Disorders.
Ali Heshmati:Uh, some neurodegenerative diseases, uh, depression, bipolar
Ali Heshmati:disorder, and it goes on and on.
Ali Heshmati:Even some types of cancer are associated with this.
Ali Heshmati:We haven't found, um, causal, um, relationship yet.
Ali Heshmati:But we know every time there are these diseases, There is the disruption in
Ali Heshmati:the circadian system, circadian system also, um, includes the sleep, right?
Ali Heshmati:Sleep is a very important part of this and light signals.
Ali Heshmati:For example, if you wake up early and you have bright light, you go out,
Ali Heshmati:let's say you get sunlight, right?
Ali Heshmati:Early on, um, your, your system sets itself earlier.
Ali Heshmati:That means you have a tendency to go to bed earlier.
Ali Heshmati:Therefore, you would get enough sleep, but if you don't, and you get a light
Ali Heshmati:signal at night, opposite, right, you are essentially sending your body into havoc.
Ali Heshmati:You go to bed later.
Ali Heshmati:You wake up later.
Ali Heshmati:That means you have less sleep and less sleep itself is associated
Ali Heshmati:with tons of other problems.
Ali Heshmati:Right?
Ali Heshmati:So what we have been looking at in architecture is that we are finding
Ali Heshmati:out the light signals inside.
Ali Heshmati:Right now, if I look up, I have about 500 lux, 300 lux to 500 lux inside my
Ali Heshmati:office from early hours of the day.
Ali Heshmati:To late night versus in nature, we have 100, 000 lots of light.
Ali Heshmati:If it's a sunny day, 100, 000 lots of light.
Ali Heshmati:And then at night we have 0.
Ali Heshmati:I know the question for you to, um, you go, you guys go to, um.
Ali Heshmati:Uh, moonwalk, sometimes you walk in the moon, moonlight, right?
Ali Heshmati:How many lakhs of light do you think, um, you see your shadows almost there, right?
Todd Miller:Yeah.
Ali Heshmati:And how many lakhs of light do you think that moon has?
Ryan Bell:Two to three hundred.
Ali Heshmati:Two to three hundred, what do you think, um, there?
Ali Heshmati:It's not a test, you're not at least
Todd Miller:I'm, I'm guessing one, one hundred.
Ali Heshmati:Well, it has less than one lux.
Ali Heshmati:You're talking half a lux of light.
Ali Heshmati:In half a lux of light, your eyes are capable of seeing not only the
Ali Heshmati:landscape, but also your shadow.
Ali Heshmati:This is amazing, right?
Ali Heshmati:So we have five types of photo sensors.
Ali Heshmati:In your eye, right?
Ali Heshmati:So imagine your eyes are 2 parts of your brain sitting outside your skull.
Ali Heshmati:Okay.
Ali Heshmati:And I say, why they are, you're calling them brain.
Ali Heshmati:You know, it's not like your time.
Ali Heshmati:Right?
Ali Heshmati:So now, why is these are 2 parts of your brain essentially is
Ali Heshmati:because you're talking about certain neurons that work here.
Ali Heshmati:There are 5 times of neurons in your eyes.
Ali Heshmati:These are photo receptors or photosensitive neurons.
Ali Heshmati:Right?
Ali Heshmati:And.
Ali Heshmati:Four of these are working with vision, right?
Ali Heshmati:You guys know about cones and rods, right?
Ali Heshmati:Rods are sensitive to light, and, uh, send light and movement, essentially.
Ali Heshmati:So they are really sensitive.
Ali Heshmati:There are many of them, millions and millions of them, in your retina.
Ali Heshmati:And then we have the, um, uh, cones, uh, which are like three different kinds.
Ali Heshmati:You know, they're the color vision, essentially, right?
Ali Heshmati:You see, uh, different colors with different parts of these.
Ali Heshmati:Different categories of these, um, neurons.
Ali Heshmati:And then we have, uh, about the year 2000, they found, uh, the scientists found this
Ali Heshmati:other type, uh, a, a fixed type of, uh, uh, photo sensitive neurons in the retina.
Ali Heshmati:And what those are, those are the ones that send the signal.
Ali Heshmati:Um, essentially blue light works on.
Ali Heshmati:Send a signal when they see the blue light, the bright blue light, they send
Ali Heshmati:a signal to the center in the brain saying it's day, or that signal is gone.
Ali Heshmati:It's night.
Ali Heshmati:Right?
Ali Heshmati:So this is where, um, we get those, um, light or timing signals, if you will.
Ali Heshmati:Right?
Ali Heshmati:But these neurons are a lot less sensitive to light.
Ali Heshmati:than those neurons that we talked about.
Ali Heshmati:As we said, you can go in half a lux of light and see where you're
Ali Heshmati:going, but that's not the case.
Ali Heshmati:And then it takes milliseconds.
Ali Heshmati:If you turn your head, you will see something right away.
Ali Heshmati:It takes milliseconds for these rods and cones to see and process something, right?
Ali Heshmati:But for those other, um, photosensitive, uh, retinal ganglion cells, it's
Ali Heshmati:It takes time, minutes to hours, actually, to register the light
Ali Heshmati:and send the signal to the brain.
Ali Heshmati:So, in our environment, we don't have enough light during the day, and
Ali Heshmati:then we have too much light at night.
Ali Heshmati:300, let's say, in the day, 300 at night.
Ali Heshmati:That disrupts our system and disruption of the system, as I said, is, um,
Ali Heshmati:connected to, uh, or associated with those, uh, um, disorders.
Ali Heshmati:And those disorders, seven of those are actually leading cause of death.
Ali Heshmati:So, as architects, we have to understand what the hell we're doing.
Ali Heshmati:We can't just, you know, build pretty buildings anymore.
Ali Heshmati:Pretty buildings are great for the brain.
Ali Heshmati:Don't take me wrong.
Ali Heshmati:But, that's
Todd Miller:Well, it seems like one answer to this from a design standpoint
Todd Miller:would be to, you know, have a building function as much as possible with
Todd Miller:strictly with natural light from outside.
Todd Miller:Um, and so that it flows in the same pattern as, as, you know, how we
Todd Miller:originally flowed is, is that correct?
Todd Miller:Or am I way off base here?
Ali Heshmati:I think you are very correct.
Ali Heshmati:Intuitively so, um, of course, um, there are complications, uh, today
Ali Heshmati:we talk about, you know, um, and I talk about this all the time, um,
Ali Heshmati:when I talk about human centric approach, I talk about the fact that
Ali Heshmati:in architecture today, sustainability, carbon footprint, uh, energy use, uh,
Ali Heshmati:You name it.
Ali Heshmati:Resilience.
Ali Heshmati:There are tons of sort of issues that we have to address, right?
Ali Heshmati:And these are important issues.
Ali Heshmati:When you talk about carbon, uh, footprint, reducing that impact, you're talking
Ali Heshmati:about a very important issue in terms of, um, caring for our environment, right?
Ali Heshmati:But our environment means nothing when you don't care of the main subject.
Ali Heshmati:Main subjects being human health and well being.
Ali Heshmati:I mean, if he, and that's why I say you are totally right.
Ali Heshmati:But then, you know, um, I know of, um, my engineer, uh, friends that, and, uh,
Ali Heshmati:architect friends that want to build buildings now that have no windows
Ali Heshmati:because Hey, we don't want to lose energy, but hey, there is a price to be paid.
Ali Heshmati:And, uh, this is a story I tell, um, uh, some friends, uh, sometimes, um, I, um,
Ali Heshmati:was going to see, uh, a friend of mine who is an architect up North in Duluth.
Ali Heshmati:Another friend calls.
Ali Heshmati:And goes, hey, I want to show you this land up north.
Ali Heshmati:Can I, um, can we go and see it?
Ali Heshmati:He had a project.
Ali Heshmati:I go, sure thing, but I'm going to see David.
Ali Heshmati:Um, and, uh, I have this great relationship with David.
Ali Heshmati:David is going to show me some of his work.
Ali Heshmati:He's an architect.
Ali Heshmati:He's a great architect in Minnesota.
Ali Heshmati:Um, and, uh, I go, I have promised him I'm going to go up.
Ali Heshmati:Uh, if you want to come up with me first, we go there and then we go through your.
Ali Heshmati:He goes, sure, let's go.
Ali Heshmati:So he's now coming to meet David for the first time, this friend of mine.
Ali Heshmati:So we go to David's office, which is behind his house, attached to his house.
Ali Heshmati:This is his old office in his old house.
Ali Heshmati:Attached to his house, this beautiful room that has 180, well, three size
Ali Heshmati:windows that go all around, right?
Ali Heshmati:This is.
Ali Heshmati:At Lake Superior, I gotta, you know, mention and, uh, sitting up on the hills.
Ali Heshmati:So it has an expansive view, beautiful place, just gorgeous.
Ali Heshmati:And this friend of mine sort of nudges me and says, uh, isn't David like,
Ali Heshmati:uh, environmental kind of architect?
Ali Heshmati:I go, yeah, why?
Ali Heshmati:He goes, you know, isn't he losing all of that energy?
Ali Heshmati:He goes, sure, he is.
Ali Heshmati:He goes, but, but how is he, you know, thinking about this?
Ali Heshmati:I said, why don't you ask him?
Ali Heshmati:I know what, what David is going to say, but I go, why don't you ask him?
Ali Heshmati:Sure.
Ali Heshmati:So this friend goes, David, um, I, you know, I'm, I'm thinking that you're losing
Ali Heshmati:a lot of energy here with these windows.
Ali Heshmati:How, how do you rationalize this?
Ali Heshmati:David, uh, stands up and goes, Come here to this friend.
Ali Heshmati:And friend goes by and goes, Sit where I'm sitting.
Ali Heshmati:This guy sits down and, uh, David goes, Look around.
Ali Heshmati:He starts looking around and all of a sudden is taken by the view.
Ali Heshmati:So starts going, Wow, this is amazing view.
Ali Heshmati:He essentially forgets about all the questions he had already about the
Ali Heshmati:sustainability and energy and all of that.
Ali Heshmati:And David goes, I paid for this experience.
Ali Heshmati:This is what I paid for, and I think it's worth.
Ali Heshmati:So we have to understand what is the balance, where is the
Ali Heshmati:balance, and what is important.
Ali Heshmati:When you talk about Daylight, for example, and, uh, is that a valid way?
Ali Heshmati:Yes, it is.
Ali Heshmati:Absolutely.
Ali Heshmati:Um, but then the complexity there is how do we rationalize the amount of
Ali Heshmati:energy we lose and, uh, how do we, uh, rationalize the amount of heat
Ali Heshmati:gain with the daylight and all of that and go on, um, further with that.
Ali Heshmati:Um, today, you know, a lot of glass buildings, for example, have these,
Ali Heshmati:um, um, exterior shadings on them, or with coatings on them, uh, some
Ali Heshmati:of which have nothing to do, no understanding of this science that
Ali Heshmati:we're talking about, because this is new science we're talking about, right?
Ali Heshmati:And when the sun hits the top of the building, for example, shading
Ali Heshmati:comes down, there is no light.
Ali Heshmati:I mean, the building has, I mean, there's a lot of money that has been spent for
Ali Heshmati:that building and the amount of light that comes in and the view and all of that.
Ali Heshmati:And there comes down and goes nothing, right?
Ali Heshmati:Instead of trying to understand, even the shading device as a
Ali Heshmati:device that can enhance the light.
Ali Heshmati:Reduce the heat game we have, and you were just into this.
Ali Heshmati:I think it's, uh, instead of a smart, um, technology, we should
Ali Heshmati:call it dumb technology, right?
Ali Heshmati:This very, very stupid technology that says either close or open.
Ali Heshmati:There's nothing in between.
Ali Heshmati:Right?
Todd Miller:Right.
Ali Heshmati:So, um, yes, I think daylight is, um, they and daylight
Ali Heshmati:strategies are extremely important.
Ali Heshmati:Um, they were important before.
Ali Heshmati:The advent of electricity, they must become important again, and
Ali Heshmati:we can learn from the old pastors.
Ali Heshmati:We can really learn from the old architecture that
Ali Heshmati:we have totally forgotten.
Ali Heshmati:So
Todd Miller:yes.
Todd Miller:Very interesting.
Todd Miller:So, I mean, is this being taught much in architecture school or is architecture
Todd Miller:school currently more about aesthetics and as you said, you know, energy
Todd Miller:efficiency and things like that?
Ali Heshmati:Unfortunately, that's the case.
Ali Heshmati:I have to tell you this, uh, with a heavy heart, because I was just reading a book
Ali Heshmati:about the science that I'm talking about, you know, circadian neuroscience, right?
Ali Heshmati:And even in that book, Says that, uh, uh, even medical schools right
Ali Heshmati:now are not teaching circadian neuroscience after 20 some years that
Ali Heshmati:this thing has been taking great shape.
Ali Heshmati:Now, it's, it has a lot longer history than that, but, you know,
Ali Heshmati:uh, so, but I do think that we have a greater, greater responsibility
Ali Heshmati:to people's health, because.
Ali Heshmati:As I said, most people are living in environments that we design and build,
Ali Heshmati:and I'm not just talking about architects.
Ali Heshmati:I'm talking about architects, builders, developers, decision
Ali Heshmati:makers, you know, goes on.
Ali Heshmati:Right?
Ali Heshmati:But architects also is that our responsibility to people's health
Ali Heshmati:is larger than, uh, you know.
Ali Heshmati:A physician or, uh, a, uh, a, uh, nurse, because they see people when
Ali Heshmati:the people are, you know, unhealthy,
Todd Miller:right?
Ali Heshmati:We, we put people into these environments when they are
Ali Heshmati:healthy and making them unhealthy.
Ali Heshmati:So, so, yes, I think we have responsibility to learn to teach.
Ali Heshmati:And to, um, bring this, uh, to more people all around, uh, whether they're, you
Ali Heshmati:know, developers, as I said, or builders, um, I'm giving talks to Everybody, I
Ali Heshmati:mean, I'm, I'm talking to electricians next month just to not only architecture
Ali Heshmati:students here and there, but to electricians, because I think they need to
Ali Heshmati:understand what they put up and how they can help their clients to understand that.
Ali Heshmati:There would be a control here if you needed, which would make you healthier.
Todd Miller:I know one of our previous guests here on the show talked about,
Todd Miller:he was a lighting specialist, and I actually didn't host that show.
Todd Miller:But, you know, he talked about blue light and the impact on health.
Todd Miller:Ways to adjust that.
Todd Miller:Um, very interesting.
Todd Miller:So I want to kind of skip ahead because, um, you have taken this one
Todd Miller:step further and invented and developed something called circadian eyewear,
Todd Miller:which I checked out your website.
Todd Miller:Very cool stuff.
Todd Miller:Looks like something Bona would be wearing.
Todd Miller:Um, but yeah, eyewear and, you know, the impact of that and how
Todd Miller:people can learn more about it.
Ali Heshmati:Yeah, I'll tell you, um, this originally this
Ali Heshmati:has a very personal story for me.
Ali Heshmati:Also, um, we, um, my partner and I, uh.
Ali Heshmati:Became aware of, uh, certain research that was done on light
Ali Heshmati:and its impact on bipolar disorder.
Ali Heshmati:Now, this is before my involvement in circadian neuroscience and, you
Ali Heshmati:know, its relation to architecture.
Ali Heshmati:We became aware of this hypothesis that said, uh, if bipolar people,
Ali Heshmati:um, have 14 hours of dark, You're talking about absolute darkness, right?
Ali Heshmati:Um, it could impact their manic period and sort of level it off in a way that
Ali Heshmati:they would not have a really large swing.
Ali Heshmati:And the lesser that swing becomes, the more stable, uh, the patient becomes.
Ali Heshmati:My personal end of it is that, um, my best Friend, um, committed suicide
Ali Heshmati:because he was, uh, suffering from manic depression for a long time.
Ali Heshmati:And he was the best, um, You know, a guy you could be with and meet and, uh, have
Ali Heshmati:as a friend, um, he was a brother to me, but, um, he never, I mean, when he went
Ali Heshmati:to that depressed mood, you, you couldn't get him out, you couldn't get him out.
Ali Heshmati:And, uh, so in any case, um, I was very, uh, amazed that
Ali Heshmati:these, this, uh, total darkness.
Ali Heshmati:Had worked, and then, and then a, uh, a scientist from, um, uh, Seattle area
Ali Heshmati:had come up with the idea if the total darkness works, but because it's not
Ali Heshmati:practical to put someone in darkness for 14 hours a day, 24 hours, um, why
Ali Heshmati:would, why don't we use something that is called virtual, virtual darkness?
Ali Heshmati:And virtual darkness for him were these, you know, virtual darkness,
Ali Heshmati:um, and glasses and what they are, essentially, they are these filters
Ali Heshmati:that would reduce the amount of light that, you know, gets to your eye
Ali Heshmati:also filter all the blue out of it.
Ali Heshmati:Okay, so, um, you're not getting that day signal anymore.
Ali Heshmati:Right?
Ali Heshmati:Remember, we were talking about at night when you get the bright light,
Ali Heshmati:you know, 300 lux of light in your eye, you know, your brain kind of goes into
Ali Heshmati:the day signal and makes you hungry.
Ali Heshmati:Uh, and reaching for that, you know, food and, um, potato chips or whatever.
Ali Heshmati:This glasses actually showed in some of the, uh, experiments that, uh, really
Ali Heshmati:helped balance that manic and depressive, um, sort of mode so much that they
Ali Heshmati:became more even and therefore less.
Ali Heshmati:sort of, uh, devastating for people.
Ali Heshmati:And, uh, so we decided, uh, to get some of these just to
Ali Heshmati:see if they can help us sleep.
Ali Heshmati:And then we found out, um, through my sort of research and other research that
Ali Heshmati:all researchers use these, uh, in their, uh, studies for sleep and sleep, um,
Ali Heshmati:stress and, all sorts of other things.
Ali Heshmati:Because What happens is that if you wear these, uh, three hours, um, before
Ali Heshmati:sleep, um, does a few things for you.
Ali Heshmati:Number one, because it blocks the amount of light and then the blue
Ali Heshmati:light that goes into your eyes.
Ali Heshmati:It gives your, um, center, your, uh, central clock the
Ali Heshmati:message that it is night.
Ali Heshmati:Therefore, melatonin kicks in a little earlier and you have a
Ali Heshmati:tendency to go to sleep earlier.
Ali Heshmati:At, you know, the time that you should be sleeping, right, rather
Ali Heshmati:than having to stay up with, you know, and most of us are using some device.
Ali Heshmati:Now, most of these devices are, even when they take the blue out,
Ali Heshmati:they are bright enough to still send a message to the brain.
Ali Heshmati:So, with the glasses, I actually had 1 of them here.
Ali Heshmati:I want to show you, um, so with the glass, um, with the glasses, um,
Ali Heshmati:you do reduce that, um, amount of light and then cut the blue out.
Ali Heshmati:Therefore, your brain gets the message that this is nice.
Ali Heshmati:And, uh, sort of right after about a couple of days, you'd be sleeping better.
Ali Heshmati:And this is one of them, actually, um, just one of the models.
Ali Heshmati:So after, after half an hour.
Ali Heshmati:I would have that signal right?
Ali Heshmati:That it is night now.
Ali Heshmati:Uh, and I don't want to have it right now.
Ali Heshmati:Of course.
Ali Heshmati:Um, you would not wear them.
Ali Heshmati:You would not wear them as a, you know, sport glass.
Ali Heshmati:You would not wear them as a sunglass, but you would wear them as You
Ali Heshmati:know, night class, um, which then you can watch TV or, you know, go
Ali Heshmati:through your life before you sleep.
Ali Heshmati:It's best if you could put your, you know, tablet away, you know, at least an
Ali Heshmati:hour or 2 before sleep, but still this would help and we looked into the market.
Ali Heshmati:We could not find anything of quality and we decided, hey, maybe we can
Ali Heshmati:design something and make it of quality.
Ali Heshmati:And, uh, sell it for okay price.
Ali Heshmati:And, uh, that's what we have been doing last, um, it's been a long time now.
Todd Miller:Well, I know when I was on the website, I was looking
Todd Miller:at it and thinking, you know, first of all, they're, they're very
Todd Miller:striking and cool in their design.
Todd Miller:I thought, oh, these are going to be really expensive.
Todd Miller:Um, and I pulled up and they really aren't.
Ali Heshmati:No, no, we have tried to, um, you know, sort of, uh, strike
Ali Heshmati:a balance between and, uh, and, uh, uh, design and, uh, materiality because.
Ali Heshmati:Uh, what we found with, um, some cheap stuff that are extremely cheap, I, I
Ali Heshmati:mean, I've bought, uh, some of these, um, by the way, uh, the, uh, glasses
Ali Heshmati:that we are making are, uh, classified as medical device, um, not many of these
Ali Heshmati:are, uh, in the market, um, and that is a very important designation, meaning that
Ali Heshmati:this has been tested to be, uh, Blocking the amount that you're talking about.
Ali Heshmati:So in any case, um, no, we are trying to keep them, um, affordable.
Todd Miller:So what we, we will have your information in the show notes and
Todd Miller:we'll have you repeat it again later on, but, uh, what is the website for folks,
Todd Miller:uh, that might be interested in this?
Todd Miller:The
Ali Heshmati:website is, uh, of course, www, um, it's a secure
Ali Heshmati:website, uh, circadian eyewear.
Ali Heshmati:com and, uh, the order can be done through.
Todd Miller:So I have to ask you, I mean, I guess I have to remove my
Todd Miller:normal eyewear in order to wear these.
Todd Miller:Is that correct?
Ali Heshmati:We have one that covers your eyewear, depending
Ali Heshmati:on how big your eyewear is.
Ali Heshmati:There is one, you know, you remember those, uh, I don't
Ali Heshmati:have one here right now.
Ali Heshmati:Remember those over sunglasses we used to have?
Ali Heshmati:There's that type, you have that type also.
Ali Heshmati:So that you can wear them over your glasses.
Ali Heshmati:I mean, those are important for me also.
Ali Heshmati:I have to wear my glasses all the time, so.
Ali Heshmati:I wear those.
Ali Heshmati:Yeah,
Todd Miller:I just think this is all fascinating.
Todd Miller:And I kind of imagine, you know, I think about, um, you know, the
Todd Miller:master control that light really should have on our circadian rhythm.
Todd Miller:I, I think about an orchestra and I think about the head violinists, they
Todd Miller:hold up their violin and they play.
Todd Miller:Uh, you know, they, what is that thing they use to play a fiddle stick?
Todd Miller:They, they, Oh, their bow.
Todd Miller:They use their bow and pull it across the violin to start things off.
Todd Miller:And, uh, I think of that as, as how this light should work.
Todd Miller:So let's talk a little bit about your building design.
Todd Miller:Um, You know, let's imagine that someone just went through a
Todd Miller:building that you had designed.
Todd Miller:Um, what are some of the words they might use to describe that?
Todd Miller:Or what are some of the things they might notice different about
Todd Miller:buildings that you've worked on?
Ali Heshmati:The words that I like to associate with buildings
Ali Heshmati:would be probably delight and joy.
Ali Heshmati:But out of words, I think any built environment.
Ali Heshmati:Any building that works for us should be almost invisible, if you imagine it.
Ali Heshmati:It's sort of the thing that, um, makes you feel a certain
Ali Heshmati:way, but you don't know why.
Ali Heshmati:Right.
Ali Heshmati:Um, I recall, um, when I was in Europe, I don't know.
Ali Heshmati:Maybe this is a question for you when you guys enter fantastic church
Ali Heshmati:healing that you get.
Ali Heshmati:It's not describable, is it?
Todd Miller:That's a good point.
Ali Heshmati:Because you really are experiencing,
Ali Heshmati:experiencing it with your body.
Ali Heshmati:It's the whole thing that impacts you.
Ali Heshmati:And we call this, um, uh, embodied experience, if you will, means you are
Ali Heshmati:experiencing it with all your being.
Ali Heshmati:Right?
Ali Heshmati:You don't, I mean, there are spaces that you go to, they
Ali Heshmati:have an immediate impact on you.
Ali Heshmati:But you don't know what, why.
Ali Heshmati:This is what I want to produce.
Ali Heshmati:I want to produce places, um, that would make people, I mean,
Ali Heshmati:if, if, if there are hospitals.
Ali Heshmati:Let's just talk about different types, right?
Ali Heshmati:I want to produce hospitals that heal people faster.
Ali Heshmati:I want to produce classrooms that make kids smarter.
Ali Heshmati:I want to make, you know, workplaces that help people focus more.
Ali Heshmati:And stay focused.
Ali Heshmati:I want to produce, um, again, uh, workplaces that you look forward
Ali Heshmati:to go to work, you know, and that's very hard to do, isn't it?
Ali Heshmati:And when you come out of it, you feel energetic enough.
Ali Heshmati:To still do your hike or do your biking or whatever you want to do.
Ali Heshmati:I have been thinking about also writing a user manual,
Ali Heshmati:if you will, for architecture.
Ali Heshmati:This hasn't been done, by the way.
Ali Heshmati:It's weird that hasn't, but it hasn't been done.
Ali Heshmati:I'll tell you this from experience.
Ali Heshmati:That we don't have a user manual for architecture.
Ali Heshmati:We have what we call a specification.
Ali Heshmati:Every, every, um, building we do, you guys know this.
Ali Heshmati:Sure.
Ali Heshmati:We put together a book like this.
Ali Heshmati:You know, every person, every contractor and subcontractor has to go
Ali Heshmati:through that, exactly do what it is.
Ali Heshmati:But we never write a user manual for architecture.
Ali Heshmati:You know, if you buy a car, you get a user manual.
Ali Heshmati:Don't you?
Todd Miller:Absolutely.
Todd Miller:Right.
Todd Miller:Yeah.
Ali Heshmati:But where's the user manual for?
Ali Heshmati:I want to write that.
Ali Heshmati:I want to write, uh, tell people that you don't need to spend 90 some
Ali Heshmati:percent of your life inside buildings.
Ali Heshmati:Right.
Ali Heshmati:This is important.
Ali Heshmati:We don't need to do that.
Ali Heshmati:Um, we don't need to schedule, for example, at a, um, educational event.
Ali Heshmati:We don't need to schedule, uh, classrooms for, uh, adolescents at seven in the
Ali Heshmati:morning, for God's sakes, eight in the morning, you know, because adolescents
Ali Heshmati:don't wake up till 10 in the morning.
Ali Heshmati:What are we doing?
Ali Heshmati:They're not going to learn anything.
Ali Heshmati:So why are we bringing them to school that early?
Ali Heshmati:Versus, hey, you come in at 10, perform till 6, and then go home.
Ali Heshmati:If you want them to be there, you know, 8 hours or whatever 8
Todd Miller:hours.
Todd Miller:All right.
Ali Heshmati:Yeah.
Ali Heshmati:So, so we, but we don't think that way right now.
Ali Heshmati:We don't have a sort of users manual for architecture and architectural types.
Ali Heshmati:And, uh, so I'm, I'm, I'm working on that.
Todd Miller:That would be a huge advancement, you're right.
Todd Miller:It's something no one ever thinks of.
Todd Miller:That's, that's cool stuff.
Todd Miller:So, I'm curious.
Todd Miller:Do you have any words of advice for folks out there who might be interested
Todd Miller:in architecture as a career choice?
Todd Miller:Um, any thoughts to share with them?
Ali Heshmati:Be passionate and curious.
Ali Heshmati:Two things.
Ali Heshmati:Very important.
Ali Heshmati:Being curious is most important.
Ali Heshmati:If you're not curious Yeah, I mean, anything we do, we have to have
Ali Heshmati:curiosity, um, you know, whether we are going to be an architect or
Ali Heshmati:scientist or builder or whatever.
Ali Heshmati:If we don't have that curiosity, we are just going through emotions.
Ali Heshmati:And going through motions is not the best thing for somebody that is
Ali Heshmati:going to do something very complex and really, um, hard to do, right?
Ali Heshmati:Um, especially in terms of money, you're not going to make a lot of money.
Ali Heshmati:If you want to make money, you know, you need to go somewhere else, right?
Ali Heshmati:But if you, um, thinking about, I mean, I'm not saying there is
Ali Heshmati:no money in it, that's not true.
Ali Heshmati:But, um, you know, that's not the major deal.
Ali Heshmati:You want to be an architect.
Todd Miller:Yeah.
Ali Heshmati:Um, you need to sort of be curious and passionate about what you do
Ali Heshmati:and you need to hit, um, those sources that you are interested in early on.
Ali Heshmati:I myself am a late person and I say this, you know, we were talking today.
Ali Heshmati:You are a lark.
Ali Heshmati:I said, uh, that means wake up early.
Ali Heshmati:I, um, I am a lark now, but there used to be a, an owl, um, meaning I, you know,
Ali Heshmati:used to go to bed late, wake up late.
Ali Heshmati:Everything late.
Ali Heshmati:As a result, I think I've done everything in my life late.
Ali Heshmati:I went to school late.
Ali Heshmati:I went to college late.
Ali Heshmati:You know, I, I have arrived at this thing late and I say late.
Ali Heshmati:I don't mean late as a bad thing late in a way that.
Ali Heshmati:I've sort of given myself time to ponder and arrive at something.
Ali Heshmati:And I think that, um, young people need to do that.
Ali Heshmati:And if they decide, when they decide, and if they decide on architecture,
Ali Heshmati:they need to be curious and passionate.
Todd Miller:I think that's very, Noble and great advice for folks.
Todd Miller:You know, I, I think about an architect and they could spend their entire
Todd Miller:career just writing these giant spec books and, you know, just doing that.
Todd Miller:But yet, when you add the, uh, as you said, curiosity to things, and that brings
Todd Miller:in creativity, um, brings in new ideas.
Todd Miller:It really changes things and allows them to be someone that can, uh, change the
Todd Miller:The world changed the world for wherever they design for and, and, uh, change,
Todd Miller:uh, even the idea of architecture.
Todd Miller:So cool stuff.
Todd Miller:Well, this has been great, uh, Ali, and we'll have to schedule a different time,
Todd Miller:uh, additional time together as well.
Todd Miller:Uh, cause I know there's a lot of other places we could go, but, um, we
Todd Miller:are close to wrapping up what we kind of call the business end of things.
Todd Miller:Is there anything that we haven't covered today that you'd like to include?
Ali Heshmati:No, actually, I'm thinking about it.
Ali Heshmati:We've been talking about so many things, and I think some of these things, as
Ali Heshmati:you said, need a little bit of depth.
Ali Heshmati:Um, but, um, we did fine today.
Ali Heshmati:I think with the time we have, uh I've
Todd Miller:enjoyed it and it's been very informative.
Todd Miller:I know our listeners are going to enjoy it as well.
Todd Miller:Well, one of the things that we do here on the show before we close out is we ask our
Todd Miller:guests if they're willing to participate in something we call rapid fire questions.
Todd Miller:So Ali, this will be seven questions.
Todd Miller:They may be a little silly.
Todd Miller:Some are serious.
Todd Miller:Um, All you have to do is give us your response and our audience
Todd Miller:needs to understand, you have no idea, we're about to ask, are you
Todd Miller:up to the challenge of RapidFire?
Todd Miller:Let's do it.
Todd Miller:Okay, well we will, you want to ask the first question
Todd Miller:Ryan and then we'll alternate?
Ryan Bell:I would love to.
Ryan Bell:Question number one, can you tell us about a product, maybe something that's
Ryan Bell:improved your health, maybe not, but just a new product or service that
Ryan Bell:you've discovered recently that's kind of been a game changer in your life?
Ali Heshmati:You know there's an app called Circadian Rhythms actually.
Ali Heshmati:Um, which is put together by a scientist in, uh, California, Salk Institute.
Ali Heshmati:Uh, I recommend, uh, and it's part of the ongoing research.
Ali Heshmati:Uh, I recommend, uh, that for anybody.
Ali Heshmati:Uh, it takes a little bit of, um, sort of attention daily, but it does give
Ali Heshmati:you a really good, um, feedback on your, um, ongoing health issues, or, um, I
Ali Heshmati:mean, for example, I use it very fast.
Ali Heshmati:I use it for, um, what I call the restricted feeding, um, time, um,
Ali Heshmati:I, I begin with, with, uh, Um, My first meal at noon, and then finish
Ali Heshmati:my last meal at 6 o'clock, and that's the time I eat after that.
Ali Heshmati:I don't eat before that.
Ali Heshmati:I don't eat and I get some other things to help me.
Ali Heshmati:For example, the glasses when I put the glasses on at about,
Ali Heshmati:you know, 8, 9 o'clock at night.
Ali Heshmati:That means after that, I don't feel hungry because melatonin
Ali Heshmati:has this satiating sort of deal.
Ali Heshmati:That's, yeah, that's the app.
Todd Miller:So what was the name of the app again?
Todd Miller:I'm sorry.
Ali Heshmati:Circadian Rhythms.
Todd Miller:We'll put that in the show notes also.
Todd Miller:Okay, next question.
Todd Miller:Who has been your favorite teacher over the years and
Todd Miller:what do you remember them for?
Ali Heshmati:Oh, my most favorite teacher was Todd Rhodes from the very first
Ali Heshmati:year I was at the architecture school.
Ali Heshmati:I was this lost student so much.
Ali Heshmati:Um, sort of, uh, thinking, uh, about everything and, uh, at
Ali Heshmati:the same time, really lost.
Ali Heshmati:And he was a young, uh, uh, architect and, uh, he came in, it
Ali Heshmati:was his first semester of teaching.
Ali Heshmati:But he gave me such a great, uh, sort of set of questions, and he became such a
Ali Heshmati:great, Sounding board and a, uh, and a, um, resource that I thought, uh, well,
Ali Heshmati:I've never had a teacher like this.
Ali Heshmati:And I would go back to him.
Ali Heshmati:I would go back to him all the way till the end of my, um, studies back then.
Ali Heshmati:So he was the best teacher I've ever had.
Ryan Bell:Very neat.
Ryan Bell:Next question.
Ryan Bell:Do you have a funny childhood memory that you can share with us?
Ali Heshmati:Funny.
Ali Heshmati:I don't know.
Ali Heshmati:Funny.
Ali Heshmati:Maybe.
Ali Heshmati:Well, I don't know.
Ali Heshmati:Um, let's see.
Ali Heshmati:Well, um, the memory that I recall a lot is that my mom would be hollering,
Ali Heshmati:uh, for me to go to get lunch.
Ali Heshmati:And I was busy doing something.
Ali Heshmati:Um, and I would say I'm coming, but I would never get there till she would
Ali Heshmati:come and get me going, you know,
Todd Miller:for
Ali Heshmati:lunch now.
Ali Heshmati:So, um, like, uh, one of the things that I would be doing was, uh, to
Ali Heshmati:actually sit by these tiny ants.
Ali Heshmati:Nests and would give them like flies or something and then watch him break
Ali Heshmati:it apart to take him down the hole.
Ali Heshmati:So that's, that was one of the big things I was doing that I couldn't have lunch.
Ali Heshmati:So
Todd Miller:that's interesting.
Todd Miller:So you've always been kind of fascinated by detail and it's interesting.
Todd Miller:It's, uh, okay.
Todd Miller:Next question.
Todd Miller:Um, and, and I don't know, maybe you don't eat sushi, but if you do eat
Todd Miller:sushi, what is your favorite sushi roll?
Ali Heshmati:Oh, it must be an Aggie.
Ali Heshmati:I love when I, yeah, it's just, uh, I think it's the best.
Ali Heshmati:That's that's the one that I go to.
Todd Miller:You are the second person we asked that question to,
Todd Miller:or they came back with an argument.
Ali Heshmati:That's my best.
Todd Miller:I have no idea what that is.
Todd Miller:I'm not a sushi fan.
Todd Miller:It's, it's eel.
Ali Heshmati:Yeah.
Ali Heshmati:It's a freshwater eel.
Ali Heshmati:They prepared in a very special way.
Ali Heshmati:There's nothing that I can make at home.
Ali Heshmati:Um, so that's, yeah,
Ryan Bell:I don't, I don't think I'm going to try that.
Ryan Bell:Maybe one day.
Ryan Bell:I don't know.
Ryan Bell:All right.
Ryan Bell:Next question.
Ryan Bell:This is one of my favorites.
Ryan Bell:Uh, imagine you're trying to survive a zombie apocalypse.
Ryan Bell:What's one person that you want to choose to be on your team?
Ali Heshmati:Oh, gotta be Arnold.
Ali Heshmati:Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Ali Heshmati:Yeah, of course.
Todd Miller:There you go.
Todd Miller:That would come to bite me too.
Todd Miller:Okay, next to last question.
Todd Miller:What would you like to be remembered for at the end of your days?
Todd Miller:And this could be career or personal or whatever.
Ali Heshmati:I think it's a personal thing.
Ali Heshmati:I, um, I seriously want to.
Ali Heshmati:Be known for that guy that would smile and say hi.
Ali Heshmati:That's it.
Todd Miller:I love that.
Todd Miller:It's funny.
Todd Miller:I went to a college And big thing on our campus was small campus.
Todd Miller:You always smiled and said hi to everybody And uh, even here in the states after
Todd Miller:I came out of college I carried that on out into the world and I got some
Todd Miller:awfully strange looks sometimes it just Was was really foreign to people but
Ali Heshmati:I have a similar story.
Ali Heshmati:I um, I after 12 years You I went back to Iran, and I landed in an
Ali Heshmati:airport, international airport, and I was going through the line.
Ali Heshmati:And so, um, as I got in front of the guy and put my password there, I smiled
Ali Heshmati:and, you know, And the guy looked at me like, what the, are you smiling?
Ali Heshmati:Like right away, I got it.
Ali Heshmati:I go, Oh shit.
Ali Heshmati:This is not the place to be doing that.
Ryan Bell:That's funny.
Ryan Bell:Um, final question.
Ryan Bell:What's something that you like to do in your spare time?
Ali Heshmati:Oh, fly fishing for sure.
Ryan Bell:Oh, really?
Ali Heshmati:Um, I, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ali Heshmati:I fly fish.
Ali Heshmati:Um, as soon as I get a chance, I'm up the mountains.
Ali Heshmati:Somewhere, you know, take like four hours of hike up where nobody is and I
Ali Heshmati:fly fish for I mean here because we have something, you know, summertime here.
Ali Heshmati:We have light till about 2 in the morning.
Ali Heshmati:Right?
Ali Heshmati:So, um, I get up there.
Ali Heshmati:I'm fishing till about 12 12 o'clock at night and then start coming down.
Ali Heshmati:So.
Ali Heshmati:Um, I
Ryan Bell:have had an urge to fly fish and learn how to fly
Ryan Bell:fish for like the last three years and I just haven't done it yet.
Ali Heshmati:Yeah, I'm starting now.
Ali Heshmati:It's just the best.
Ali Heshmati:I, it is really the best gift you give yourself because, um, when
Ali Heshmati:I go, um, I mean, it's weird.
Ali Heshmati:It doesn't matter how it is, what kind of stress, what kind of.
Ali Heshmati:You know, um, thing it is there, you go up there, you're one with the
Ali Heshmati:nature and nature is one with you.
Ali Heshmati:It's just like, and then fly fishing is, um, to me, and I do different types of fly
Ali Heshmati:fishing, you know, from trout to big fish.
Ali Heshmati:And, um, the thing is that you, you know, you make your own things.
Ali Heshmati:That's part of it too.
Ali Heshmati:Your own flies and then you drop this thing in and when you have
Ali Heshmati:that connection, it's just like you are connected with nature.
Ali Heshmati:I swear.
Ali Heshmati:It's just, it's not just the fish, you know, um, struggling.
Ali Heshmati:It's the whole lake or whole river that is attached to you.
Ali Heshmati:It's a very different thing.
Ryan Bell:And I think you described that so well.
Ryan Bell:I think that's what has drawn me to it is the idea of making your own flies and just
Ryan Bell:the, the, I know there's an experience there that I want to experience,
Ryan Bell:but I just haven't done it yet.
Ali Heshmati:Yeah.
Ali Heshmati:If you need some, um, some, uh, tips.
Ali Heshmati:Just let me know.
Ali Heshmati:I've been doing it for a while.
Todd Miller:All right.
Todd Miller:Awesome.
Todd Miller:Ryan, you and I haven't done many road trips together, but maybe one
Todd Miller:to Norway together is in our future.
Todd Miller:That would be cool.
Ali Heshmati:I have to tell you, um, uh, you know, I know you guys
Ali Heshmati:are, um, you know, from Ohio, right?
Ryan Bell:Yep.
Ali Heshmati:So, so, so, The landscape here on the West Coast of Eastern
Ali Heshmati:Norway is just so amazing, so amazing.
Ali Heshmati:You have never seen anything like it.
Ali Heshmati:And, by the way, um, If you come to Bergen, you're welcome
Ali Heshmati:to stay with us and have fun.
Ali Heshmati:So I'll take you for life.
Todd Miller:Maybe we'll make that happen.
Todd Miller:That would be awesome.
Todd Miller:I might have to hold you to that one.
Ali Heshmati:Absolutely.
Ali Heshmati:You're more than welcome.
Todd Miller:Well, this, this has been great.
Todd Miller:Uh, thank you, Ali.
Todd Miller:Um, for folks who want to get in touch with you, uh, what are some of
Todd Miller:the best ways for them to do that?
Ali Heshmati:Well, um, you have, you've got in touch with
Ali Heshmati:me also through, um, LinkedIn.
Ali Heshmati:Right?
Todd Miller:Right.
Todd Miller:LinkedIn is a
Ali Heshmati:very good platform there.
Ali Heshmati:I have a newsletter there now that has good followings.
Ali Heshmati:Um, and, uh, that's a good one.
Ali Heshmati:Then I have, uh, another, uh, company of mine called, uh, letting,
Ali Heshmati:which stands for laboratory for environments, architecture and design.
Ali Heshmati:Which was established in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
Ali Heshmati:Now it's in Norway as well.
Ali Heshmati:Uh, so that would be the second one.
Ali Heshmati:But those are, you know, those are the ways to contact.
Todd Miller:And of course, check out circadian eyewear.
Todd Miller:com.
Todd Miller:That's pretty cool.
Todd Miller:Thank you.
Todd Miller:Well, this has been fantastic.
Todd Miller:I am pleased to report to our audience that we all met the challenge and
Todd Miller:came up with our challenge words.
Todd Miller:In fact, uh, Ali was an overachiever.
Todd Miller:He used his challenge word a number of times.
Todd Miller:Um, Ali, your word was actually words.
Todd Miller:Potato chips.
Todd Miller:Potato chips.
Todd Miller:And you worked it in well, Ryan, you got yours in there as well.
Todd Miller:You had health right there at the end.
Todd Miller:And I, I kind of worked mine in kind of a, uh, non, what shall I say?
Todd Miller:A typical way.
Todd Miller:Uh, I have the word fiddle sticks, which I could have just said, Oh, fiddle
Todd Miller:sticks, but I didn't want to do that.
Todd Miller:So I, I worked it in a little differently there.
Ali Heshmati:I was, I was impressed because, uh, you talked about something
Ali Heshmati:that I wanted to talk about, you know, the metaphor that you use for
Ali Heshmati:orchestra, that's just right on,
Todd Miller:really interesting stuff.
Todd Miller:Well, thank you again, Ali, for joining us.
Todd Miller:This has been a real pleasure.
Todd Miller:Um, we encourage people to, to reach out and touch base with Ali, a great guy.
Todd Miller:He was very easy for me to connect with on LinkedIn.
Todd Miller:Um, and I want to thank our audience for tuning into this very
Todd Miller:special episode of construction.
Todd Miller:Disruption with Ali Heshmati, um, senior architect living in Norway at this time.
Todd Miller:Please watch for future episodes of our podcast.
Todd Miller:We always have great guests.
Todd Miller:Don't forget to leave a review or whatever you can do on Apple podcasts or YouTube.
Todd Miller:Um, until the next time we're together, keep on challenging, keep
Todd Miller:on disrupting, keep on being curious as, as our friend says, um, look
Todd Miller:for better ways of doing things.
Todd Miller:Um, don't forget along the way to smile and say, hi, have a positive impact on So
Todd Miller:in the meanwhile, um, we'll see you on the next episode of Construction Disruption.
Todd Miller:God bless and take care.
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